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Entrepreneurship - Nurse to Tech Entrepreneur: The Woman Behind a Visual Revolution - Axelle Vanquaillie (Founder of Drawify) E110

Entrepreneurship - Nurse to Tech Entrepreneur: The Woman Behind a Visual Revolution - Axelle Vanquaillie (Founder of Drawify) E110

Axelle Vanquaillie founder of Drawify

Axelle Vanquaillie, a Belgium-based entrepreneur, has transitioned from a non-tech background to founding her own tech company. Axelle shares her journey from being a social nurse to creating "Drawify," a platform that simplifies complex content into visual stories.

  • Axelle's transition from a social nurse to a tech entrepreneur, highlighting her passion for visual storytelling.

  • The inception and evolution of "Drawify," a platform that turns complex content into visual narratives.

  • Axelle's advice for budding entrepreneurs: dream big, be authentic, and surround yourself with the right people.

Axelle Vanquaillie (Founder of Drawify)

I live in Belgium, but I feel like a citizen of the world. My visual story started in 2010. I’d been an HR and communications professional for 18 years when I discovered the magic of (live) visual storytelling for corporate purposes (Where has this been all my life?!). By combining drawing and strategic skills, I hope to prevent information overload and create illustrations with a powerful ability to clarify the most complex strategic content and transform viewers’ perspectives.

My mission is to inspire and empower anyone in the world to draw to communicate and to learn. My trainings and book Start to draw were the first step to make this possible. During Covid, I started the visual storytelling platform Drawify to convert content into visuals, without having to draw yourself. Together we can make information in this world easier to capture, to understand and bring to life.






⚡️ In each episode, Paddy Dhanda deep dives into a new human Superpower and gives practical advice on how you can apply it immediately.

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[00:01:01] Paddy Dhanda: Hey folks. Today we're joined by a very special guest on the Superpower School podcast. I have a female entrepreneur who has gone from a non tech background into starting up her own tech company.

And she's based in Belgium. And I have the pleasure of meeting her because we are meeting at the International Sketch Note Camp conference over in Leiden, which is in the Netherlands. So I'm super, super excited to welcome Axel van Kwaaij. Hey, how you doing?

[00:01:37] Axelle Vanquaillie:

Hi. Hi, Paddy. Thanks. I'm doing good. And thanks for inviting me for this podcast.

[00:01:42] Paddy Dhanda: Oh, you're welcome. Did I get your surname

[00:01:44] Axelle Vanquaillie: right? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. It's closer than anyone else. Thanks. Thanks.

[00:01:51] Paddy Dhanda: That's good, because I have been known to get people's names very wrong on this podcast. So I'm glad we got that right.

[00:01:57] Axelle Vanquaillie: I have a very difficult name.

[00:01:59] Paddy Dhanda: So Axelle, like your background when you and I were talking previously, you mentioned, that you never saw yourself

as a tech person and all of a sudden you've won this award. So could you tell us a little bit about your background? Like, where did you start? And it'd be great to know what you did.

[00:02:20] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe first before expectations are too high. It wasn't really an award. It was kind of a nomination in a magazine.

But anyway, it was very special already. So my background is. It's really something different. So as a, from study, I'm a social nurse. I have chosen for that study because I wanted to help people and I wanted to travel around the world. I thought if I'm a nurse, I can work wherever in the world and I can help people.

So that's how I started. But I'm very eager in learning. I'm always.

So I ended up being a communication specialist, a human resource specialist, I became a consultant, I saw someone drawing at a conference, making visual summaries, and I thought, wow, that's the coolest job in the world, I can travel with that, and I'm helping people to remember their message better. So I went to a training, and I learned that, and I started doing graphic recording 12 years ago.

So that's. The background of the last years and then of course, COVID came and as I was traveling around the world to visualize meetings and conferences, my agenda was, of course, wiped out in less than two days. I had nothing to do. And in the beginning I enjoyed it, but after a few days or weeks, I was really getting bored and I was thinking, okay my mission is.

To make visual storytelling accessible for anyone in the world. So I wrote a book, but that's clearly not enough to make people become a visual storyteller. So I was thinking, how can I make visual storytelling more accessible for everyone? Also people without a budget or without the talents to draw.

And that's how I came up with Drawify. So it's a platform where people can create their own visual stories without having to draw. And it's from that... perspective as an entrepreneur that indeed I was nominated as Tech Woman of the Week or of the Month, which was really funny because of course I learned so much about tech last three years, incredible what I learned, but from background I'm not a tech person at all.

And so my good friends, they thought it was quite funny to see that as a title on my face. But anyway.

[00:04:29] Paddy Dhanda: Well, in my eyes, you're a tech person. I think somebody that can take an idea and Put together, a team and build a business and a tech platform like you have Certainly qualifies. I think as a tech entrepreneur, so I'm really interested to understand, from the moment, well actually, how did you get the idea for Drawify in the first place?

I mean, I know you were talking about, you'd written a book and that wasn't enough to be able to help people with visual storytelling. So, like, what was the... The next step after that,

[00:05:06] Axelle Vanquaillie: well, the first seat was planted two years before COVID more or less, I was training I had a client where, which asked me to do a drawings.

He was a serial entrepreneur, a young guy starting startups, and he had a management buyout and he wants to have a drawing for his startup. So he became a client and then short after that, he came to one of my trainings and he wanted to draw himself and after the training, he said, Oh, I want to chat a little bit.

And we were fantasizing Canva was just starting up. And he said, imagine that you could do a kind of Canva. For the visual storytelling fields and we were fantasizing. So we were just brainstorming. Oh yes. And this and that. But then of course, like I said, I wasn't really busy. I didn't have any brain space to think about something new.

So when COVID happened, I suddenly was thinking about that conversation. I was thinking, Oh man, I had that very interesting conversation with that client who I didn't hear back. Since then, I'm going to contact him. So I send in the mail. He responded in one hour. He said, Yeah, let's talk today.

So we had a chat. We talked about the idea we had two years before. And that's how we got started. And then very fast. I'm super grateful for that. I contacted a few rock stars in the world about visual storytelling, like, Ben Crothers, Heather Martinez and a few other people. And I asked, well, I have this idea.

It's maybe a crazy idea. I don't know if it's going to work. I can't pay you anything. That's how it's going to work. Do you want to join? And 15 people said yes, but really big names. In the, for me big names in the field, and that was so powerful because if you start an idea and there are 15 people around you saying, yes, we go for it, that really helps to get the idea yeah, in the air.

[00:06:56] Paddy Dhanda: So, to be able to secure these 15 port leaders, did you take a certain type of approach to convince them to come on board? I know you said, Hey, this is my idea and I don't know if it's going to work, but did you have an approach that you had thought about? Maybe a visual story yourself, had you created anything like that or what was that sort of approach there?

Because I always think about. When I'm trying to entice guests onto the podcast, especially some of the, you can say more famous thought leaders out there, some of the famous authors, I find it really difficult to attract those sorts of people because a lot of them are looking for podcasts that have hundreds and thousands of downloads and I'm just not in that space.

So it's always. It's interesting for me to understand, like, how do you persuade people to buy into your idea?

[00:07:57] Axelle Vanquaillie: Well, you had a very good session this morning, people of course from the podcast don't know, but you told us that people buy or decide with their heart. So I, of course, because I'm quite some time in the field, I met a lot of people and I reached out to the people I like and to the people I had a connection with.

And I have the chance that those people are very nice people and also top leaders. And so I've really started with all the people I said, okay, who do I know? Who is nice to work with, has a nice personality, who has some knowledge or talent that could really help the platform. And then of course I made a visual presentation, I made some estimations about what they could earn, which by the way was completely wrong.

It was way too much, so I promised them all things that I couldn't live up to, but anyway, sorry for that. But anyway, so I've chosen with my heart. I've really chosen from a connection point of view. So, yeah, that's something I did.

[00:08:57] Paddy Dhanda: That's amazing. You were authentic in your ask because you said it with such emotion and feeling.

And then I guess those sort of people they find that irresistible. Like how could they possibly say no, if someone's asking them so nicely, which is wonderful. And so. Going then from getting people on board. To securing funding getting a team set up. Like how did you go about that?

[00:09:27] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah. So, I w we were lucky that fails.

So that's my co founder who was also my client. He knew a team in Sri Lanka who was, he could trust they were. It's amazing. They have treated Drawify like their baby. It's unlike any other tech team, I think. They have given their lives for Drawify. And they have to work, basically, like, a lot of Drawifys have to work with us.

They have given So much without getting back. So I don't know how that's, I don't know how we did it, but it's incredible how much we can do with a low funding. And then we did, yeah, we had we've put a lot of money ourselves in. So that's the money I, we earned by. While things were really going well, I've put a lot of that in the company, of course.

And then we had business angels and we had a crowd lending and all smaller amounts. Let's say we didn't have big investors still. Now we are looking for big investment for the future, but we all did it with small amounts. And then of course, revenue also this revenue coming in, which helps. So yeah it's really lean startup. It's fairly limited to the amount of funding we have. But what we did with it is amazing.

[00:10:36] Paddy Dhanda: That's phenomenal. And I guess on that journey, did you have to pivot at any time? And if so, could you give us some examples of when you've had to make those tough decisions?

[00:10:48] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah, we've pivoted a few times also on, on our architecture and platform itself. So we started with something that was really bad, full of bugs. Yeah, it was terrible. So we had to rebuild very fast. After six months, we had to rebuild the platform because we just started. We see, okay we'll see what happens.

And it wasn't good enough. So we had to rebuild. And then we pivoted a few times in how to position it. And recently where we thought in the beginning was more going to be like a database of visuals that people would use to create a visual story. Now with everything that's going on in the field of generative AI and mid journey and all those, a database of illustrations is not possible.

is relevant anymore. So we had to pivot really fast towards creating visual stories that people can adjust. So not the illustration is not important, but the story behind is important. So, and we were not yet ready for that. It was something we were going to do in the far future. And pivoted in two, three months, last couple of months.

And so we just launched Maya, which is a result of that. So yeah, we Since the world is changing so fast, you have to change constantly with the world, and that's really challenging, and also really exciting.

[00:12:04] Paddy Dhanda: Where the platform is right now. If someone's listening at home thinking, well, joy if I visual stories, like, could you explain like who might get use from the platform and what problem it will be solving for them?


[00:12:21] Axelle Vanquaillie: the biggest problem it solves is that it turns something complex content into something very. Simple and visual. So like you said yourself, we are getting information all the time and too much information is text and it's not visual at all. So it's very hard to capture. So if you have a message to convey, if you have a change to announce people involved.

You better be visual and you better use something that touches the heart of the people. But yeah, so most people can't draw or they don't have the courage to do it. So they can put their content in the platform and it translates it to a visual story for you. So you get a summary of your content in a visual way.

And so before you had to do it yourself, but now it's done by our intelligent assistant. So you can basically put a very difficult note. In it, and you get a summary in a visual way, so you can present it immediately to the people you want to convey.

[00:13:17] Paddy Dhanda: And that's Maya, you mentioned. That's Maya, yeah. Is your new AI extension of the application, which is phenomenal.

And I guess if someone's thinking, well, surely I can do this in PowerPoint, I can take stock images, I could somehow... Create and craft a visual story through using stock images. How does Drawify give you the additional benefit?

[00:13:42] Axelle Vanquaillie: All the images in Drawify are, by the way, made by true people, true artists the community behind the platform.

And we all know that an image, so a drawing, a handmade drawing, is. much more appealing than a regular stock image. Because it's more simple, and apparently the brain processes it much easier than a normal picture. So, the fact that it's hand drawn appeals much better. So that's a big advantage.

And also, yeah, a slide. So if you're talking about PowerPoint, it's linear, it's slide, where we generate one pagers, where you see the connections between the different parts of your story, which is also, our brain is not linear, but we present everything in a linear way. So by making it more visual, as visual story in one pager, you see the connections.

Instead of one linear story. So that's another way. But I think the drawings the reason why the demand for drawings is increasing is because it's reducing a lot of yeah, complexity. If you can draw it, you can tell it. So that's, you can explain

[00:14:51] Paddy Dhanda: it. And you mentioned you've got

15 plus thought leaders. Yeah, now we're 40 already. Oh wow, now it's up to 40. Okay. And so each one will have their own style. And so I'm guessing that might well appeal to people as well. Like Ben Crothers style or, you know, Martinez's lettering style.

[00:15:11] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah, indeed. So you can indeed, and that's some people are just a big fan of someone on the platform and that happens all the time, which is great.

So they can say, okay, I like Ben or I like Colina or like Martin or whatever, it doesn't matter which name. And I want to create my my infographic or my visual story in his style or her style. And then you can indeed choose and And adjusted in that style.

[00:15:33] Paddy Dhanda: As a female entrepreneur, you know, there's probably other people out there females who maybe have ideas, but never quite had the guts to go forward with an idea. Like what advice would you have for somebody who's contemplating going down this entrepreneurial journey? What other kind of two or three.

Big lessons that you've learned that if you could look back and tell yourself these lessons

[00:15:59] Axelle Vanquaillie: still learning. But dream big enough. I see that we, I don't want to. I don't think there's one type of woman, and in general, I'm not a women man thinker, so I don't like to make that. But what I see that I do, and I recognize it with a lot of other women, is that we think very often too small.

So if you can do 50 percent of what you should do, we see the 50 percent we don't do. And I see a lot of male entrepreneurs, they see the 50 percent that they don't care about the other 50%. So they just Dare to think bigger and dream bigger than a lot of women. That's what I see. I don't say everyone is the same.

Not at all. But it's something. So dream big enough. Dream big enough. So that's certainly something. And then a second one. I very often get the feedback I'm too authentic and too honest. That's something. Too authentic and too honest. Wow. That's something I get every week. As a feedback, and it's not helpful if you want to pitch, because if you pitch, they are not looking for the honest version.

They are looking for the inspiring, promising version. So, that's something I would also say be honest, but focus on the promising and on the positive and not on things that might go wrong because that's not what is selling. what you're doing. So that's another thing.

The third one is probably make sure you have the right people around you because it's impossible to do it on your own. And it's so much more fun when you have people around you that elevate you, that make you laugh, that. Like to make fun without them. I wouldn't survive for one week.

Really. I have so many wonderful people It's not a female thing It's same from for men. I think but it's really important to have the right people around you And it doesn't have to be employees. It can be whatever kind of people that support you.

That's really important. Without them, it's, for me, it would be impossible.

[00:18:02] Paddy Dhanda: Yeah. Oh, that's a really good point because I always think I want to surround myself with positive people. So then I feed off that energy as well. And in the past, I think I wasn't quite aware that if you are in a group of people that are quite negative, they will drag you down as well.

Absolutely. Yeah. So it sounds like, you know, you've found your crowd of people that are elevating you.

[00:18:32] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah. Yeah. Get rid of them. I mean, it's very exciting. The journey as an entrepreneur and I love it and I learn every day, but man, it can be so hard some days it can be so challenging in so many ways. So you have, yeah, like, in a tech space and that's something I had to learn. I didn't know that things will always.

Go a little bit wrong. It's impossible to build something and especially not a web based thing because the web changes every day So your program can work one minute and the second minute it doesn't work. So you have to hear what's going wrong You have to immediately solve it. So that's part of the game So it's sometimes, yeah, you have to deal with a lot of problems and you have to solve constantly problems.

So it's not always easy. And especially with a startup, it's always demanding. You have to go so fast. You probably don't have enough resources very often. Yeah it's just, it's challenging. You have to pitch thousand times to get a positive result. You have you have believers, you have non believers.

You have people leaving the team, whatever. You have so many things and because you are a small team, you have to deal with, you have to deal with a small team. If you're a big company, you have your responsibility and that's it. In the startup, you have everything, so it's very fun it's very yeah, inspiring and energetic, but it can also be hard.

So if you have them negative people around you, I wouldn't recommend that.

[00:20:04] Paddy Dhanda: So something I've heard from some entrepreneurs is that one of the big lessons they learned was. Although they're really passionate about the idea, they should have been a little bit more hands off on certain aspects. And what I mean by that is, for example, I had a conversation with one entrepreneur a few years ago and his startup failed because what he found was everyone was too dependent on him because nothing would get done without him being there.

And he was so into the detail. That actually, if you'd focused on elevating the brand forward and thinking more strategically, it would have enabled the team to sort out that low level stuff. Because you can't be everywhere at the same time. Have you found that at all?

[00:20:56] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah. I don't want to be on the hands on work, to be honest.

Some years ago I did like a strength test or talent test. Core talent is strategy. So, I don't want to be there on the operational stuff. Unfortunately, I have to be sometimes because I just don't have the staff to do it. But I follow you completely. As soon as you grow, you have to be able to delegate that.

On the other side, what I learned is that sometimes you have to do it yourself first. to understand what you have to delegate. That's something I learned last year about a very specific thing, marketing. I didn't know anything about it. I delegated it. It's very hard to delegate something if you don't know what you have to delegate and how you can follow it up in a correct way.

So that's, even if you don't do it yourself, you have at least to understand really well what the other person is doing. That's also a challenge if you're not tech and you have tech team. But yeah, of course I have other people who help me with that, you can't be on the operational yeah, stuff every day.

[00:22:05] Paddy Dhanda: It's really interesting point you raised there because I remember when I first started my career and I. Became a programmer and I'm not a very good programmer.

I should never be allowed to program probably but At the time I was like, well, why am I doing this? Yeah. I mean, I quite enjoyed it because it was problem solving and it really did challenge me. And I was able to be creative, but I never thought of myself as a very good programmer. But I was so glad I did it because I did it for about two to three years.

And I was doing some quite hardcore programming. It was C programming at the time. Oh yeah. I was working on interconnect billing systems for a big telecoms company. And there were lots of calculations and algorithms that we were trying to implement. But then as I've gone through my career, because I've had to work with tech teams, just having that appreciation, if nothing else, just the appreciation for that particular skillset was invaluable because I would then work with of technologists who were having to code and just being able to speak the same language was really invaluable. And even with the podcast that I, with the podcast, it's really interesting because a lot of people were saying to me, Hey, like just get an editor. Like, why do you do everything? Cause I literally do the thumbnails I do like all of the editing. I do all the social media, everything is on me. And now I've started to bring in like other people I have an editor now who helps me, but like you say, it's been invaluable for me to do it myself because I've figured out a good workflow myself. And then when the editor has come in, I've said, Hey, like, this is exactly how I would want this done.

I've given them some very clear guidelines. And if I hadn't done all of that stuff myself, who knows what would have come out the other end. So, I totally agree with you. I think I'm one of those people as well that I like to have a go myself first. Yeah. Just to appreciate the thing. And then then be able to bring in someone better than I who can do it.

[00:24:20] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, that's. And then you also know which part exactly you have to delegate because maybe there are some parts you are much better doing yourself and other parts you delegate. By the way, you said something really interesting. You said. in the beginning, why I'm doing this. Another advice, the fourth one, and for everyone, not only for female Oh, you really have to stay connected with the reason why, because sometimes you will forget why you are doing that, why you are sacrificing your holidays, why you are whatever, sacrificing whatever.

There's a, it comes with the costs when you're an entrepreneur. You don't have a fixed salary. You don't have the certainty. You don't, you're giving up a lot of things you have as an employee. So you really have to know why you're doing what you're doing and stay true to that. Why? And understand it and to see it. And at any point, it's crucial. I still have my poster that I, my brainstorm poster that I did when I started with Drawify, my own brain dump. It hangs in my office and it stays there and it's still relevant. But it reminds me all the time. Okay, that's why I started. When I have a bad day, I look at it and say, okay, I'm doing this for a reason.

So, that's really important. Start with why and stick with why.

[00:25:35] Paddy Dhanda: Yeah, no, I love that because I think Simon Sinek, right? Yeah, that's

[00:25:38] Axelle Vanquaillie: my biggest, well, if I have one big idol, it's Simon Sinek. I want to spend One night with him on the bar, to talk with him. So if you've never listened to this podcast, please find me.

[00:25:49] Paddy Dhanda: Simon, if you're listening, dude, just come on the podcast.

[00:25:53] Axelle Vanquaillie: Yeah, this is my biggest source of inspiration for many reasons.

[00:25:56] Paddy Dhanda: Because he's quoted saying something like, I can't remember the exact quote, but he does say, like, if you have values, like don't let them be just a poster on the wall, you should live and breathe them.

And I think that's. Really interesting that you say you've still got your original why, and it hasn't just become something that was forgotten that you do constantly revisit it. And I think that's a really great thing to do. Constantly remind yourself of the reason.

[00:26:29] Axelle Vanquaillie: And also, whatever you delegate, I would never delegate contacts with users.

I'm still getting all the support questions. I'm not going to solve them all. Right. But I see the feedback of users. Huh. I reach out to users sometimes. I do sessions with users. Like conferences like this that you can hear from people why they would use it. People use it already.

So the connection with the end user and how you're changing their lives. That's crucial for me to Yeah. To keep on doing it because they give me the reason to continue. Yeah. 'cause they tell me, oh, you changed my life. I'm saving so much time. Or, oh. It's so much inspiration. Whatever. It gives me the feeling.

Okay. It's great what I'm doing. I have to continue . So especially the, not every day, but especially the days that sometimes you, there's so much fog, you don't see , the road anymore, you know? So,

[00:27:21] Paddy Dhanda: absolutely. Yeah. So my final question, you mentioned earlier, think big, dream big. So where are you taking Drawify?

What's the big master plan?

[00:27:31] Axelle Vanquaillie: The big master plan, and I know some visual thinkers are not going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyway. So, like I said I believe that we can go a whole way further with visual thinking. There are far too many meetings that little nothing. There are far too many trainings that people forget everything that has been said.

So I'm always thinking, imagine that you come out of the meeting and you get a visual summary. And I know that's what we do as graphic recorders, but we are expensive because easily like, I don't know, 2, 000 a day. So it's expensive. Not everyone can afford that. So imagine that you can have a smaller, affordable version.

That comes out of the computer after a meeting, that everyone has a very clear visual summary of what has been agreed on and everything. That's when, in the end, I want to bring verify that there's no one making that report that no one reads of whatever 20, 000 words or 20 pages. No one will read that, but if people get the summary in a visual way, they will.

Remember what has been said, and I want to make that affordable to anyone in the world, and it can be a meeting, it can be a training, it can be whatever, a panel, that's something I want to democratize for everyone. That's my biggest that's my

[00:28:54] Paddy Dhanda: vision. Oh, wow. Nice. And with the way the world is moving, it's possible, absolutely.

[00:29:02] Axelle Vanquaillie: We need a bit of funding because everything is possible already. You only have to connect the dots, train the system and we have the knowledge to do it. We only need the resources to make it happen. But it's possible.

[00:29:16] Paddy Dhanda: Got it. And, hey, I think you mentioned the visual thinkers aren't going to like this, but actually...

[00:29:22] Axelle Vanquaillie: No, but a lot of people think they will become obsolete with it, which I don't believe because they will being that person in the room who connects the dots and make people think and facilitate the conversation. That's not something AI will take over. Never. So we just have to reinvent ourselves and add more human factors to our work, and then it will become even more valuable. I heard, by the way, Peter Diamandis, I don't know if you know him, it's a guru in the US about technology. He said, because of the human factories getting lost in a lot of AI, the human in the room will become more important.

So that's where we can, yeah, bring more value, I think. Yeah. As graphic recorders

[00:30:06] Paddy Dhanda: oh, well, I'm glad. I'm glad.

[00:30:08] Axelle Vanquaillie: That's why I'm not replacing. I'm just making it accessible. That's all. But I know there's a kind of fear about it. Yeah.

[00:30:15] Paddy Dhanda: I think it's just the fact that when things are uncertain and there's change happening.

Yeah. Without us having a clear path uh, or sometimes we feel a bit vulnerable because, you know, things are going to change, jobs are going to change, our responsibilities are going to change. I think that's a natural human instinct, isn't it? To fight the change. But I think with all of these things, progress then brings some new opportunity.

And that's what I'm hoping with just general AI as well.

Don't just think it's going to replace the thing we're doing and then we don't evolve any further because actually if it takes some of the hard work away from what we're doing, that's fantastic, right? We can focus our efforts on things we enjoy that are going to add that value. So yeah, brilliant.

Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you so I've learned a lot and I just think yeah, Drawify, you know, we talked about it earlier as well at the booth who came to your stand and you gave me a demo of Maya. I love the name, by the way your AI extension that you recently launched.

Yeah, super cool. I just think it's gonna be, really interesting how things evolve in this space and as a visual thinker I think Any tool that helps visual thinking and bringing visuals to the masses is only a good thing because I still think, when I sit through presentations at work that are heavily text based with tons of writing and paragraphs, It's a shame.

It's cruel. It's

[00:31:57] Axelle Vanquaillie: terror. It's torture. It's

[00:32:00] Paddy Dhanda: torture. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So thank you. Thank you for trying to change the world.

[00:32:06] Axelle Vanquaillie: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. It

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